Role-playing Games Asked on January 2, 2022
In a recent Werewolf session, our GM had us meet an informant in a gay club, and it raised an issue we never really explored before in this game. Our group of players is composed of people close to the LGBT movement, so it was possibly a little catering, but it made us consider where our characters stand on LGBT topics.
While each player has the rights to dictate where their specific character stands on the topic, it also raised the question of where the Tribes and Fera stand on the topic. That’s one we couldn’t decide, and that’s the focus of this question.
Of course, each of the Tribes is different, all of them have their flavor, and the Fera differ quite a lot from that too, which makes this quite a large mass of books to sift through.
Where do the Tribebooks/Breedbooks1 address LGBT topics, and what is the general standing that can be condensed from these texts? Please provide page numbers for reference. Books from any edition that can provide information are welcome.
Please note I’m not looking for personal interpretations of what you think the Tribes and Fera stances would be, and I’m especially not looking for people’s personal stance. The question is only what the books describe as the stances of the various groups.
1 – as it came up: Any WtA source is allowable, including the MET variants. I phrased it like this, as these two type of books are the two most logical starting points for this quest. The various Player Guides might also be an excellent source.
The Mokole Breedbook (page 100) actually addresses homosexual relationships and that they are accepted (though most mokole are "not so oriented") because they can have healthy long-lasting relationships without the risk of metis offspring which is an especially great risk for mokole.
The Rites of Breeding ensure that two Mokolé of the opposite Sex do not mate [...] Same-sex love is familiar to both homid and suchid Mokolé, although most Mokolé are not so oriented. As same-sex relationships cannot produce children they can be more affectionate and permanent than opposite-sex mating (as the relationship is obviously existing for its own sake), and often are. Breed Book 6 - Mokolé p100
Answered by Jesara on January 2, 2022
First of all, a little look into the core book:
The good old animal attraction does care for sexual orientation since W20, did you know that? A male Bête could sway a gay man just as much as a female Bête could a lesbian woman or both a bisexual person, but the male could not lay the lesbian woman or the female Bête the manWerewolf: the Apocalypse 20th Aniversary Ed. p277.
It used to work independently of that in Revised, pretty much opening the door for violating people's orientationsWerewolf: the Apocalypse Revised p199.
Because the thing gets rather long a quick and dirty rundown on the analysis following:
Now, onto the Tribebooks!
Here is an excellent answer about the new W20 material. I'll take a look at the old books...
Many are active in American or Canadian politics, siding with our human sisters to lift the Patriarch's yoke by law or claw.Tribebook 1 - Black Furies, p24
This speaks openly that the Furies support equality rights. If this does include LBGTQ-rights or not is to be determined. But they also say this:
of courese we are mothers! [...]male Kinfolk, both human and wolf, make good studs for future generations.Tribebook 1 - Black Furies, p29
The paragraph this comes from implies a very strong impetous on procreation, though it says nothing about needing to be heterosexual. It might just be, that even the LBGT-Furies are exected to procreate (unless they are metis).
Contrary to belief, we have not all forsworn the company of Man. The drive of Woman to Man is a natural thing, and not always a bad one. Tribebook 1 - Black Furies, p31
This again has a useful information, even if veiled a little: Not all Furies are lesbian. But that also says that some are either lesbian or bisexual.
Half of them [Black Furies] lived through the early seventies, and don't like to be reminded of what went on; the other half either feels that human women still haven't been liberated from the yoke of Man, or that human women are already liberated enough, and spend too much time trying to be like human man rather than women. [...] A group of human) American feminist thinkers, writers and activist formed the National Organization for Women (NOW)... [blurp about the Equal Rights Ammendment of 1972 - and it not getting ratified].Black Furies Revised, p27
This is a little more political than often, but it shows some kind of desillusion among the Furies, but also hinting that (in the 70s) the tribe was all behind equal rights - but not telling about the extent. Just women rights or also LBGTQ-Rights? That would demand Interpretation. But there is one more interesting tidbit:
[...]even as a fury, even as a metis straddling the gender divide, SpartacusBlack Furies Revised, p28
What straddling the gender divide means here is hard to tell, but it seems to be how the Furies see their Metis. And then there is this:
Does it make you uncomfortable, sister? You may call me "sister" as well, if you like; enough other Furies do. No? "Brother", then? Or perhaps just "Symon?"Black Furies Revised, p41 [...] (my own deformity, I'm told, did not make my birth uncommonly difficult)Black Furies Revised, p42
This male-black Fury metis seems to view himself at least somewhat female, or it is just a habbit. He does raval on about how Furies go through pregnancy and their view on abortions (very split), but how they view metis does also come... with this interesting tidbit:
[talks about most female metis getting sent to other tribes.] All metis get shunned for their parents' crime, [...] but a female metis Black Fury is a barren womb, somehow less a womanBlack Furies Revised, p45
Procreation clearly is a clear drive for the Black Furies, which would be reflected in the handling of LBGTQ-Questions.
So concluding: the Furies might have a weak pro stance, as long as the individual Garou involved does at least try to procreate [or is a male metis].
We’ll mate with whomever we damn please, and the rest of the Garou can go screw themselves.Tribebook 2 - Bone Gnawers, p30
I found Bone Gnawer lovers on many occasions, charachs who openly adore each other, even in their moots.Tribebook 2 - Bone Gnawers, p33
While few Bone Gnawers would admit this openly, long, lonely hours of living on the street sometimes drive them to seek sympathy and comfort [...] Simply put, even the most uncivilized Lupus learns the value of a little protection. Many aren't terribly open (or open-minded) about sex, preferring to keep their liaisons furtive and transient. Tribebook Bone Gnawers revised, p49
Both of these quotes technically come in the context of metis, but are somewhat open: while strictly speaking it speaks of combinations of male/female couples, the don't care/don't get caught approach might or might not also cover any other combination.
But the Defiler tempted some wounded males, and encouraged them to overcome women by force, to turn love into violence. [...] Our Black Fury sisters can tell you more of this process.Tribebook 3 - Children of Gaia, p17
Yes, strictly speaking, this quote starts in a paragraph talking about procreation, but it sheds some light about how the Children of Gaia see love: as something holy, as something that is there to tie a couple together. But they also used sex as a weapon in the past:
In an inspired move, our tribe and theirs [Black Furies] conspired with our Kinfolk to suspend a particularly foolish city-state war by convincing the women to withhold sex from their partners until the men renounced the war. After a discomforting ordeal, the men agreed to end the war.Tribebook 3 - Children of Gaia, p22
And they are somewhat strong supporters of gender equality, indeed, together with the Furies, they seem to have masterminded it! But again, there is no clear statement if that means just male-female equality or also indicates support for LBGTQ on the political field:
This was corrupted by the Wyrm, who took advantage of sexual insecurity to destroy tolerance and female authority, and advocate violence and slavery.Tribebook 3 - Children of Gaia, p24
We broke the most ancient and wicked of Wyrm taboos. We finally freed women from the shackles of servitude. This feat is so new to the world that its repercussions have hardly even been felt yet. We offered humankind the heady, exuberant, delightful and very uncomfortable joys of peace, freedom and sexual equality.Tribebook 3 - Children of Gaia, p28
The Children of Gaia in some ways seem to be the flower power movement still running: free love and open sexuality.
We are men and women who use love to heal the world. We exalt sexuality and sexual love to heal wounded bodies and souls. By bringing the infinite joy of Gaia into the lives of men and women, we create peace where once there was anxiety and fear.Tribebook 3 - Children of Gaia, p34
Because our tribe sanctions love between Garou, we must be a thousand times more careful than any other tribe to not produce metis. Thus far, we have been very successful, and have produced very few metis.Tribebook 3 - Children of Gaia, p36
As I said earlier, they do not say if they support LBGTQ on the political field, but they indeed do so socially. They are the first ones that spell it out (emphasis mine):
Consensual love between those of consenting age is always beautiful, regardless of breed, race, sex, tribe, or whether both lovers are Garou.Tribebook 3 - Children of Gaia, p37
Revised pretty much tells the same story in a dialogue:
"[...]It means don't, really don't, make metis. [... You got to be] Careful. Really careful. [...] pills and condoms don't work either. If you're gay just have a pup by Kinfolk and no one will care; if you're straight, watch it with other Garou."Children of Gaia Revised, p44
Our parents are Kinfolk, so are our brothers and sisters. We take lovers and mates from our Kin.Tribebook 4 - Fianna, p29
The body is sacred. Gaia creates us to be perfect. We test our bodies and our minds, and strive to take care of ourselves. [...]
Now, it’s natural for two young pups who play together, fight together, drink together, and dance together to feel desire, passion, even love for one another. But it is wrong to bring a metis into the world. That’s the way it is. Look, when you must slake your passions, then find one of our Kinfolk, stare into his eyes for a while, and just do what comes naturally.Tribebook 4 - Fianna, p36
They are somewhat close-knit, seek for personal perfection... The last part reads as "if in need, have a kinfolk", but it also does point to the animal attraction rules... So with the W20 ruleset applying, this would mean that this approach at least does respect the orientation of the Kinfolk. Also the stress on "love each other" in combination "it is wrong to make a metis" is familiar from the children of Gaia to some degree: any love is great, safe sex-love is safe from Metis. This does imply they at least accept the love, though not imply demands like the furies. This is also cool here, hinting that they are a little more on the conservative side than the proactive Children of Gaia:
[Children of Gaia] understand what love is about, although they can take it a bit too far.Tribebook 4 - Fianna, p43
But we also learn where they stand politically... that is, werewolf-politically:
The political views of most Fianna on the future of their tribe - and by extension of the whole Garou Nation - can be roughly grouped into two distinct group. The members of the larger group [...] are great supporters of the traditional ways. For them, the Silver Fangs are the Gaia-appointed rulers of the Garou Nation [...]. The smaller is championed by Son-of-Moonlight [...]. These Fianna are more pragmatic than their peers. [...] American Fianna tend towards the loyalist faction [...].Fianna Revised, p39
And there is a very interesting throw in that hints that Fianna Moots are not always a thing of just song, dance and booze - or that dance may also mean sex for Fianna:
Often we have multiple dances - some in Lupus, some in Homid and the Garou-only dances in Crinos. The elders watch those ones carefully, as we don't want any Litany violations, do we?Fianna Revised, p42
But then again, we get this message here, hinting that some Fianna (it is a tale told by someone after all) seem to have a hard-cut way what sex is supposed to be.
The Mother made them [Metis] sterile, so they have no business trying to have sex like real Garou.Fianna Revised, p47
Without our Family we have nothing to live for. [...] It's certainly common enough for two people who live and fight for one another to fall for each other. It's hard to keep those passions from becoming physical. [...] When you really love someone, and the Fianna never do anything less, it's hard to even contemplate being with someone else, let alone actually making the beast with two backs with them.Fianna Revised, p53
But there might be a silver lining here, as the teller of the last tidbit does not account separately for any LGBTQ combos that simply can't create metis - they don't seem to bother him.
While the Black Furies are an all-female* tribe, the Get have an all female! war camp, and they mean it. There is no exception, all the Valkyria of Freya are female. And they are pretty much even more radical feminists than their Black Fury sisters. But no word on if those have opinions on LBGTQ safe for them being founded to fight for equality.Tribebook 5 - Get of Fenris, p26/27 Oh, and they are (according to another teller) an America-Only group of whiny bitches. In Europe the Get do honor people for their fighting and don't care about the gender but if they can bash their way up the ladder.Get of Fenris Revised, p52
The Hand of Tyr, another camp, have a knack for hunting down murderers and rapists of their kin - including other Get - so technically speaking should avenge a Garou, no matter what their sexual orientation - as long as it was not dishonorable as dishonoring yourself means they will hunt you down. And they have something quoteworthy to illustrate this stance:
There is no honor in attacking the innocent. There is no glory in molesting a five-year-old or forcing yourself on a woman.Tribebook 5 - Get of Fenris, p27
And as brutal the Gets are, they fight for their families pretty much above anything, especially their Kinfolk ones. They fight for them to the death. The Kinolk are after all their biggest assets after their claws. They are to be treated well and... not to be bullied. How far does that stretch? Hard to tell.Get of Fenris Revised, p51
And... while the Fianna and Children of Gaia and Bonegnawers say "Do as you please" (just don't make metis), the Get clearly place a ban on any Garou-Garou couple that has sex - according to the book, mere copulation is enough to violate the litany. And they are even more harsh to homosexual Garou:
[Copulating with] other Garou is a violation of the role Gaia has ordained for us, and you must never, ever forget this. [...] Some Garou believe that the operative word in the rule is "mate," and that merely having sex with other Garou is alright. This is a lie. [...] The Question arises as to whether or not it is acceptable to have sex with a Garou of the same gender as your own. Such an act is doubly damned, for the perpetrators not only turn away from their homid and wolf Kin but also from the possibility of producing offspring.Get of Fenris Revised, p56
They have a paragraph labeled "Sex and Cubs in the Modern World"Tribebook 6 - Glass Walkers, p34, from which we get some info about their troubles finding fitting mates, but nothing about LGBTQ. And the quip about the Litany rule 1 (Don't mate with Garou) is seemingly just a jokeTribebook 6 - Glass Walkers, p37 or a snarky remark that they adopt all the Metis other tribes won't haveGlass Walkers Revised, p46/47.
They are wolves. They have no idea of human society, so I skip their books.
2nd Edition was a flop... not a single word on love and even the metis quip gives no insight on other kinds of love than heterosexual Garou Garou parings being so outlawed. But Revised has at least something:
Note that mate here does not merely refer to the production of offspring; it refers to sex as well.Shadow Lords Revised, p47
Silent Striders are somewhat pragmatic.
We breed where and when we can. [...] And believe it or not, occasionally we fall in love with other Garou. Anathema though it may be, I'm sure you know difficult it is to deny your feelings.Tribebook 9 - Silent Striders, p34
It gets lonely on the road.Tribebook 9 - Silent Striders, p35
No word about other than heterosexual love, but interpretable. But Revised? slightly different picture:
No, I don't care that you're both head over heals in love and no, I don't care that you're "being careful". [...] For Garou, mating and sex is not just a private activity between two people. We have a sacred duty to Gaia to continiueisly inclrease the size our bloodlines. Silent Striders Revised, p59
Few of us, apart from Renewalists, would ever mate with other Garou or Kinfolk from other tribes.Tribebook 10 - Silver Fangs, p30
That can be read in two ways: any Garou or just Garou from other tribes. Not clear, but that's all I could dig up.
The body cannot be ignored; it. teaches the truths of the phenomenal world through pain and ecstasy — it teaches that others are real, both enemies and lovers.Tribebook 11 - Star Gazers, p37
We are born as a Garou not so that we can enjoy physical love with each other, but so that we can hone ourselves into spiritual weapons against the Weaver and the Wyrm. [...] Objectify the desire as if it is something separate from you; this allows you to view it from all perspectives.
We do not deny love; to deny such bliss from Gaia is evil. But we discriminate between the physical expression of love, based on false desires and goals, and the true love which comes from the heart.Tribebook 11 - Star Gazers, p37
Love is clearly accepted, but they do seem to have a reluctance to sex. Since Revised, the Stargazers joined the Beast courts... and thus our main source - the litany discussion - isn't there.
Odd.. 2nd Edition did not discuss the litany at all. In revised, they do at least have the litany, but it gives no insight on love and sexuality among the Garou (safe that making Metis is a crime...)
Home stretch for the wolves!
Don't lie with someone you are not supposed toTribebook 13 - Wendigo, p38
Again, a ban on sex with other garou, no word on Love or LBGTQ. Revised says nothing.
Now, let's look at the others, the Changing Breeds.
The spiders are pretty alien in their ways, always scheming and plotting. And they just happen to be the only ones that can have this merit:
Gender-Morph (6-pt. Merit, Ananasi only) The character can change their human sex at will, by breaking into the Crawlerling form and reforming as a human again. [...] Aside from the sex switch, this doesn’t grant a radical change in appearance — both sexes have similar features and look sufficiently alike to be siblings.W20 Changing Breeds p208
While presented first in the Breedbook 1 - Bastet, the Ajaba are not cats or even related to them. They are the Hyenas, the Wolf-replacement for Africa. They... have no stance on love depicted at all, just that they are at the brink of extinction and work on bouncing back; they are pragmatists:
These days, the Ajaba mate with whomever they can to keep their kind aliveBreedbook 1 - Bastet p68
It's a hint they favor the procreative kind of couples, but not a per se shun on non-procreative couples. maybe it's worth to take a look back to the Black Furies or Children of Gaia here: As long as there are kids, nobody cares? That's a very wide interpretation though.
In the end, each Bastet is who he wants to be, not who his tribe says he should be. Each cat is free to choose his destiny.Breedbook 1 - Bastet p44
Ok, that one hits a nail telling us "cats are individualistic, they care more for their own picture of themselves than that of others". Sooo... pretty open? Let's delve deeper into them, starting at the Karoush (Litany)...
Honor yourself [...] Honor your word [...] Honor your Kin and Kind [...] Honor your Earth [...] Honor your silenceBreedbook 1 - Bastet p38
Wow, the litany has nothing to explicitly ban happenings (no wonder, taken how individualistic they are), but has one debatable position here: "Honor yourself", which can also mean "avoid the inbreeding sickness"Breedbook 1 - Bastet p37, but that sounds more like a weak "Better don't make Metis" than the treasure trove of information the Garou hid under their first litany item.
The Bagheera storytime tells us of a Menage a Trois between two men and a womanBreedbook 1 - Bastet p45/46 (which is a story shared in similar shape with all other Bastet), but they are also
raised among Hindus, Moslems, Buddhists, tribal cultures and Catholics [with] very strict ideals of honorBreedbook 1 - Bastet p47
While that is the general gist over all Bagheera and a very diverse list of standings on a lot of matters (even contrary in the scope of this question), the list contains cultures that deem non-heteronormal pairings shameful or dishonoring. The best interpretation might be to judge them on a case by case base, which means about 500 cases.
Balam place great importance on honor and family. The cultures from which they come stress strength under pressure, personal responsibility and family honor. [they] don't get along with each other [but] many choose lifetime mates [...] A mate [...] is pampered and protected for the rest of her life, and the children are raised with love.. [...] once bonded, a Balam never strays.Breedbook 1 - Bastet p49
Family people that mate for life seems to put an emphasis on non-LBGTQ pairings, but there is no indication about them having to be heterosexual couples: it just says they choose their partner for life and are monogamous.
Bubasti have surprisingly nothing to say but their weird experimentsBreedbook 1 - Bastet p52 to create felis-born... What it does say about their stance on the matter? no idea, but at least some of them are quite queerly (yes, I used this with intent!).
Ceilician have adopted best to the modern world. [...] Passion intoxicates these Folks; anything that stirs emotions draws them like ants to sugar, and they're not shy about whipping a few frenzies now and then just to keep things interesting[...]Breedbook 1 - Bastet p54
For what it's worth, it might be a really weak indicator to their stance - they might adopt the predominating stance towards LBGTQ-Questions in their area. Or be entirely drawn by what catches their eye, which might be anything from A like asexualism over F like Flower Power to Z like referring to people as zie (which is a gender-neutral pronoun...). And their stance might shift several times within a lifetime, they are the mercurial cats after all.
Whatever a Khan does, he does full-tilt - fighting, romancing, hunting, studying, even contemplating. [...] Most Khan love company; [...] who could refuse a tiger's friendship? [...]Shapeshifters as passionate as the Khan [...]Breedbook 1 - Bastet p58
These 20 (which was their canon number in the 1950s), maybe a few more, Khan are heavily passionate... but nothing more about their stance on love bt that they commit themselves fully to it.
a Pumonca is a loner among loners [...] They never stay for long [...] The tribe's ways stress honor, strength and self-reliance. No whiners are accepted.Breedbook 1 - Bastet p60
Sorry, that's all about the Pumonca: they are depicted as enigmatic loners/hermits without a stance on love and sexuality.
Solitary by nature, the Qualmi [...] shun the company of other people. [...] Qualmi see beyond Appearance, and they loathe hypocrisy. [...] Qualmi never mate for long; lovers part ways before the children themselves are born.Breedbook 1 - Bastet p64
...which in turn get adopted and only told their real parents if they are Bastet themselves. So... the Qualmi are loners that have sex and children as they please but don't commit to loving? I guess that is the picture painted here.
Simba adore their loved ones, and watch their Kinfolk closely.
Simba mated with the toughest of them [Ajaba] - often by force.Breedbook 1 - Bastet p68
Yep, Simba are somewhat Khan-like: they commit to their love, though not as fully. But the make family a Pride matter. And... well... at least some of them don't care the wants of who they have sex with... uhm... sour taste anyone? Yes, these lions are rather effed up. But how they stand to LBGTQ? Good question, but if they are, they commit to it.
The Swara are loners and wanderers. [...] Only animals and spirits are worthy companions for a cheetah; [...] The Swara aren't gloomy Folk, they're just resigned. More isolationists than nihilists, they live as best they can. [...] Swara avoid community,[...] Breedbook 1 - Bastet p70
The Swara are similar to the Pumonca in a way, that they don't speak about love much, but they at least give a little hint, that they prefer their feline side and usually just try to get along.
The foxes might have a rather liberal stance as can be somehow seen in a Kitsune-exclusive Homid gift:
Seduction (Level One) — A Nine-Tails with this Gift holds a powerful attraction for mortals, and can cause humans to fall in love with herHengeyokai p163
This is reprinted almost exactly in the W20 Changing breedsp131 and it does not care about sexual orientation. It just spreads attraction and love for the fox, though that doesn't need to be sexual attraction. There are after all many ways to love, and one of them is platonic.
As a side note, since the Beast Courts are very close to the Asian traditions, one should research the human side there too... and since Kitsune can be very long-lived, don't just look at now but maybe some 200 years back.
Among the many faces of Coyote is a female spider Ti Malice as well as Loki, Pan and Kokopelli. Ti Malice is a female spider god, Loki is the pansexual trickster god-thing of Norse legend (hide your sons, daughters, and horses from him!) and both Pan and Kokopelli are gods of physical love... Coyote is pretty much the whole LBGTQ-spectrum.Breed Book 2 - Nuwisha p33
His children can change genders just as fluently... for a scene with a level Two Gift called New Face.Breed Book 2 - Nuwisha p50
Finally, the decision was made by a high-ranking Rokea [...] that the betweeners would be hunted and killed, and that this stalking should be part of young Rokea's first hunt.Breedbook 8 - Rokea p33
That's why I think it's more an urge to breed than an urge for sex. A shark wouldn't understand the difference anyway, and it took me some time to get used to the idea of mating for mating's sake.Breedbook 8 - Rokea p42
[from: What are Rokea NOT]
Rokea are [not] cold and unfeeling. No creature that possesses Rage is cold and unfeeling. Rokea do not take pleasure or sadness in their kills, normally, because such things do not come naturally to them. They are more than capable, however, of making friends and enemies. Therefore, they may feel love, hate, fear, anger or whatever else the player feels appropriate. A Rokea experiencing these things may not be able to recognize them and therefore not deal with such feelings well, but that's half the fun.Breedbook 8 - Rokea p55-56
"Betweeners" are Rokea that lives on the coastline, only returning to the ocean to regain Gnosis and assume Squamus form. They are the outcastsBreedbook 8 - Rokea p32 and killed on sight. So all the LBGTQ Rokea are on the to-kill-list by living on land, not for their orientation. If they even have such members as sex for fun is alien to them. simply put, they have feelings, but may not understand them well in most cases. They do turn to rape out of sexual frustration at times, but that is another story.
Because of space limitations, I had to resort to massively redact. The original text is in a Google Doc here
Answered by Trish on January 2, 2022
Per this blog post, the 2016 Mind's Eye Theater W:tA book from By Night Studios appears to present a female trans Black Fury who is accepted as female by her tribe. Verity Argyris is introduced as a Black Fury historian, and on page 62 of the book she writes:
The Metamorphic Plague visited upon the Black Furies... birthed a new generation of children of both genders in equal numbers within this tribe. My mothers were among the first to keep children who were born male. I remember the pride on their faces during my Rite of Passage, when Pegasus looked into my heart and proclaimed the truth. Afterwards, they embraced me not just as their daughter, but a sister of the tribe.
I don't know how consistent this is with other W:tA material, and I can't answer for other tribes, but it's a data point.
The reference to "my mothers" is suggestive of acceptance of lesbian couples, although it might alternately be interpreted metaphorically as "my female elders".
Answered by Geoffrey Brent on January 2, 2022
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